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Posts:
939
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Re: preparing dried beans
Posted:
Feb 14, 2009 9:14 AM
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Aiy, aiy, aiy. Let me say, that I have great respect for everyone's PERSONAL cooking experience. And I repeat, if what you do works for you- then keep doing it.
However, let me also say, that I have my masters in nutrition, and an undergrad degree in pre-med /food science. I have done research on these matters. I don't think you're clear on what I was saying.
Hard water does contain calcium, it also generally contains magnesium (generally only calcium is measured when determining hardness). It also OFTEN contains smaller quantitites of iron, manganese, and even bicarbonates, sulfates and aluminum.The mineral content of hard water in most areas does not result in a significant change in pH (acidification).
When excessive salt is added to the beginning of the cooking process with dried beans it CAN prevent softening (as I explained before). This is because of a chemical reaction between the minerals in the water and the salt. Salt would be the limiting factor in the reaction. So, if not much salt was added- then not a lot of insoluble mineral salts would be created (basic chemistry) and the beans would still soften. Excessive salt in certain instances, could result in hard to soften or (HTC) beans and extended cooking times.
There have been mulitple research articles written on this phenomenon. Let me quote from some of the results, as I realized that my previous link wasn't working- I seem to have different access to some of these journals... "The results show that CaCl2, MgCl2 and the local tap water increased firmness, Ca and Mg content in the cooked beans compared to distilled water; however, water absorption, leached solids and pectin solubilization were decreased by these salts. " (UZOGARA et al., Journal of Food Science). "The sodium salts affected the mineral content as well as the amount of pectic substances solubilized from the beans during soaking and cooking periods. The greatest alterations in these components occurred when beans were soaked in a solution containing four salts (NaCl, NaHCO3, Na2 CO3 and Na5P3O10). X-ray microanalysis suggested that mechanisms of ion exchange and chelation were operative in the dissolution of the intercellular cement and the subsequent cell separation."
(VARRIANO-MARSTON & DE OMANA, Journal of Food Science). "NaHCO3 ... reduced the cooking time while CaCl2 significantly increased the cooking time. The salts also affected the sensory properties. Results of protein analysis showed a significant difference between the treated samples at a concentration of 0.6 g/L. This suggests that heat and salt influence the protein content of legumes when cooked. NaHCO3-treated samples required the least cooking time but samples treated with NaCl were more accepted." (Onwuka & Okala, Food Service Technology).
I could go on, but I'm sure you get the point (and are by now, quite bored). What I'm saying is that hard water & the addition of salt will extend the cooking time. I'm not saying that they will never, ever get soft. For those who have posted that they've been having trouble with their beans, this could be significant. You can also see why 30 minute shows on cooking beans or general cookbooks don't go into this sort of detail.
Incidently, Florinated water will offset some of the effects known in HTC beans via competitive inhibition of phytase and precipation of the before mentioned minerals.
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2
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Re: preparing dried beans
Posted:
Feb 13, 2009 10:52 PM
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I'm sorry but the claim that hard water prevents softening of dried beans is an old wives tale. It's never been a problem for me and I live in a hard water area. Beans contain calcium for a start, and the hardness of water is mainly insoluble chalk particles or calcium carbonate, which reduces acidity keeping pH equal to 7 and does not chemically react with beans.. It's when you cook rehydrated beans in acidic conditions (pH below 7) eg with tomatoes that softening becomes inhibited and cooking can take hours.
Soaking beans in hot slightly salted water allows some salt to enter the beans during soaking and flavors them as well as breaking them down a little. Simmering them in plain water quickly softens them after rehydration. No need for pressure cookers or the use of baking soda.You can always add more salt if you like for flavor once the softened beans have been added to the other recipe ingredients..
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Posts:
121
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Re: preparing dried beans
Posted:
Feb 13, 2009 8:09 AM
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> Hard water has nothing to do with preventing beans
> from softening. I live in a hard water area and don't
> have a problem.
Actually, it's a proven fact that the calcium in hard water makes it difficult to soften dry beans
http://www.kelleybean.com/consumers_prep.html
> Dried beans need to be soaked in lightly
> salted water in a glass bowl between 6 to 8
> hours. After soaking-time.discard the water, lightly
> rinse beans, then simmer them slowly in plain
> water just covering them for up to an hour,
That's backwards, actually. Soak beans in plain water and cook them in salted water. Otherwise your beans will be very bland and tasteless.
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2
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Re: preparing dried beans
Posted:
Feb 12, 2009 11:08 PM
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> As I stated- in most instances it is fine...but if
> you have HARD water, you can find yourself in a
> "tough" situation so to speak. Many people don't know
> if they have hard water or not. And I agree- salt
> makes them taste better. But if you wait to add it
> about 30 minutes into the process you avoid any
> problems AND get good tasting beans.
Hard water has nothing to do with preventing beans from
softening. I live in a hard water area and don't have a problem.
Dried beans need to be soaked in lightly salted water in a glass bowl between 6 to 8 hours. Pour boiled water straight onto them, that covers beans by about an inch and cover the bowl with a lid. After soaking-time.discard the water, lightly rinse beans, then simmer them slowly in plain water just covering them for up to an hour, depending on degree of softness and bean type. Black-eyed beans soften quickly in about 10 mins, whereas Haricot beans or Lima beans take about 30 mins.
When the degree of softness has been achieved, then remove from heat, allow to cool then add to recipe. You can use the water the beans have been cooked in for stock, and add as much salt as you want from then on.
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Posts:
1,787
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Re: preparing dried beans
Posted:
Jan 23, 2009 1:02 PM
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Barely 
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180
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Re: preparing dried beans
Posted:
Jan 23, 2009 12:03 PM
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Can you read English? 
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Posts:
1,787
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Re: preparing dried beans
Posted:
Jan 22, 2009 10:33 PM
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> Russ Parsons is the famous food scientist who wrote
> "HOW TO READ A FRENCH FRY"
Does it come with a French to English translator? I can't read French 
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Posts:
250
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Re: preparing dried beans
Posted:
Jan 22, 2009 4:21 PM
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> Russ Parsons says salt 'em early so I salt 'em
> early.
>
> Russ Parsons on preparing beans
Russ Parsons is the famous food scientist who wrote "HOW TO READ A FRENCH FRY"
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Posts:
250
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Re: preparing dried beans
Posted:
Jan 22, 2009 1:38 PM
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> I hate to press the point- but I really am not making
> this stuff up. I found the abstract to the article
> from 2006 (a much newer reference than the your cook
> book reference- AND a peer reviewed journal).
> http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/119599984/a
> bstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0
>
> As I stated- in most instances it is fine...but if
> you have HARD water, you can find yourself in a
> "tough" situation so to speak. Many people don't know
> if they have hard water or not. And I agree- salt
> makes them taste better. But if you wait to add it
> about 30 minutes into the process you avoid any
> problems AND get good tasting beans.
Sorry but I totally disagree.
I have years of personal experience at this. SALT early.
Plus I believe Shirley Corriher.
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Posts:
939
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Re: preparing dried beans
Posted:
Jan 22, 2009 1:36 PM
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I hate to press the point- but I really am not making this stuff up. I found the abstract to the article from 2006 (a much newer reference than the your cook book reference- AND a peer reviewed journal).
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/119599984/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0
As I stated- in most instances it is fine...but if you have HARD water, you can find yourself in a "tough" situation so to speak. Many people don't know if they have hard water or not. And I agree- salt makes them taste better. But if you wait to add it about 30 minutes into the process you avoid any problems AND get good tasting beans.
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Posts:
807
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Re: preparing dried beans
Posted:
Jan 21, 2009 7:31 PM
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Some very interesting information here. Thanks to all. I guess this can count as my learning for the day!
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Posts:
54
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Re: preparing dried beans
Posted:
Jan 21, 2009 2:44 PM
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Hi!
I always salt my beans when I cook them. And I cook them a lot as my daugher decided she was a vegetarian some years ago. So we ate a LOT of beans!! She's since started to eat some meat, but we still eat beans all the time.
If you don't salt the beans they won't taste as good.
Salt doesn't prevent them from getting soft. That's usually because your beans are old. If you have a "health food" store nearby that's the best place to find fresh dry beans (an oxymoron -- but you know what I mean).
I found the below to be helpful:
Myths about dried beans
There are three "facts" you'll often hear about cooking dried beans, such as kidney and great northern beans. It turns out they are all myths.
You must soak beans before cooking. You can soak beans of course but the only advantage it provides is to shorten the cooking time. There's no reason not to start cooking dry beans directly as long as you have the time to simmer them long enough.
You must not add salt to beans during cooking or they will not soften. Tests show that the only difference between beans cooked side by side with and without salt is that one is salty and the other is not. Some people feel that salting during cooking gives better flavor because some of the salt ends up inside the beans.
You must not add acid, such as tomatoes, to beans during cooking or they will not soften. Acid does in fact have an effect on beans, tending to keep the skins intact, while alkaline substances (baking soda) help the skins to break down. In both cases however the beans cook perfectly well. You can use this to your advantage, adding tomatoes during or after cooking depending on whether you want whole beans or mushy beans.
Note, however, soaking can help reduce the "gas attack" effect that some people experience after eating beans. Bring dry beans and water to a boil, remove from heat, and let sit for an hour. Drain, add fresh water, and continue cooking. This removes some of the chemicals in the beans that cause the gas.
Source: How to Cook Everything by Mark Bittman, Macmillan, 1998.
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Posts:
939
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Re: preparing dried beans
Posted:
Jan 21, 2009 1:22 PM
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The American Bean Organization, The Michigan Bean Commission (and their RD), and my Food Science Text disagree. Most of the time you can get away with it- but there is a risk of insoluble mineral salt formation and creating an impermiable skin. It's also more of a problem w/old beans (something that most chefs would never cook with- but is a fact of life for most home cooks).
I am aware that there was a study done in the Journal of Food Science (2006) that stated salt did not effect the amount of water absorption (though pH did)- but that was in distilled H2O. When they used a combination of 4 salts (including NaCl) there were alterations in pectic substance solubilzation.
But I never said you have to wait til the end of cooking to salt, as I agree with Alton Brown- the flavor will suffer. Giving them 30 minutes or so til the skins begin to soften is sufficient.
http://americanbean.org/cooking-with-dry-beans/
http://www.michiganbean.org/askRD.html
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Posts:
128
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Re: preparing dried beans
Posted:
Jan 20, 2009 4:20 PM
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> However- salts also prevent softening.
No it doesn't, sorry.
Harold McGee and Shirley Corriher are probably the two most famous food scientists in the world and they'll both tell you that salt has nothing to do with tough beans.
SO will Robert Wolke, another famous food scientist.
So will Alton Brown, who is not a food scientist, but who said this: "If you wait unti they're finished to add the salt (your beans are) going to taste like papier-mâché."
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